tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post8819867463133449377..comments2023-04-05T03:47:31.205-07:00Comments on Industrial Anti-Oppression: Death in June and NON/Boyd Rice: Fascism, Racism, and Misogyny in the Old SchoolCorvus Strigiformhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-78075060969804141522016-06-07T19:20:57.342-07:002016-06-07T19:20:57.342-07:00I bet you all have a black friend, too.I bet you all have a black friend, too.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-12230397636571880432016-06-07T19:18:20.211-07:002016-06-07T19:18:20.211-07:00I know Boyd and can tell you first hand -he is not...I know Boyd and can tell you first hand -he is not a racist Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12590373914726686744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-48605827478842423382013-07-03T14:44:33.266-07:002013-07-03T14:44:33.266-07:00Did I not say that this was about Death In June? I...Did I not say that this was about Death In June? I said: "I would love to keep on going about Boyd Rice but I'm out of energy now. Some other time!" Although I now see that this could be taken wrongly, so I apologize for the confusion. Although I don't think I even mentioned Boyd anywhere else but in the very end and I mentioned Death In June everywhere, so I don't know how I could have been this misunderstood.<br /><br />I do not disagree with the fact that Boyd has said a lot of stuff that is misogynistic. I'm mainly pissed off about the fact that DI6 is always linked into having the same beliefs as Boyd Rice.<br /><br />I'm really waiting for you to debunk any of my claims about Death In June's nazism though.<br /><br />And I apologize for not giving you a more "hip" analogy than the SoaD one. But also you calling me a noob on the same line doesn't really do anything else than show me your ignorance. And if you could tell me why I failed, except on not giving you a more interesting analogy, I'd appreciate it.<br /><br />Also, Coke Zero = very light. If you catch my drift?Titohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06020785070348863811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-92233670115000728482013-07-03T12:37:15.169-07:002013-07-03T12:37:15.169-07:00Hi, many thanks for your post. Unfortunately, your...Hi, many thanks for your post. Unfortunately, your YouTube link regarding gay nazis is down. I don’t know what the link referred to, but maybe it was the german documentation »Neonazis, die Männer lieben« http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgs3MCl2E4k? Well, maybe not, there are several on that topic.<br /><br />As for Rammstein, I think you should follow your own position here and actually hold them responsible for Nazis liking them, just as you do with other artists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-76681323468978470262013-05-28T07:12:47.404-07:002013-05-28T07:12:47.404-07:00I have a few bones to pick with this post.
Firstl...I have a few bones to pick with this post.<br /><br />Firstly: don't tell people to go read that rubbish on Libcom. It's about as factual of a text on DIJ as the Bible is on science. There's a huge bunch of mistakes in there, for example the origin of the groups name and stuff that I will come back to later in my text. But in no way is it "a very well-researched and convincing argument".<br /><br />Secondly: like the Libcom article, you don't provide us with any quotes proving that there is any basis on your nazi accusations towards Douglas Pearce. <br /><br />I guess you can interpret it in any possible way, but for example when Douglas talks about Hitler being the most influential man of the century, so what? Isn't it true? Maybe he did influence the world in a horrible and destructive way, but influencing as the most evil is just as much influential as being influencing as the kindest, right? The quote gives no indication on what Doug thinks of the man on a moral or political level.<br /><br />Same goes pretty much for all the other quotes. There is nothing there that states that he would be a nazi or a fascist. He likes white cock, so? If he said he loves black cock would you blame him to be a black supremacist? Of course not.<br /><br />Thirdly: the symbols. Totenkopf can be considered as nazi a symbol, but if you would have done more resesarch you could have easily found the explanation of the totenkopf usage in their album covers etc. <br /><br />On the surface level it simply means Death In June. Totenkopf for death with the tiny number six (just like in the picture you linked) representing the sixth month, June. On a deeper level Doug has explained that since it's usage from the time it was worn by Russian soldiers and later by German troops, it has been a symbol for commitment as in "death do us apart" I guess you could say. Never has he stated that it would have any sort of nazi symphatizing purpose on their artworks.<br /><br />The Life rune and Schwarze Sonne (black sun) on the other hand can be linked to Nazi occultism, but also in interviews Doug has talked a lot about the signifigance of runes in his life and once again there is nothing that I've found that would link him to being a nazi.<br /><br />The black sun hasn't even been used a lot in DIJ art. There has been a red Schwarze Sonne, if you'll pardon the paradox, on a black background as a backdrop on their gigs and there is at least one shirt where there's a silver one, but other than that I can't recall.<br /><br />Fouthly: misogynistic shit? Where? When? He used the term fiswives once to explain how these PC politicians who ban bands like Death In June from playing gigs gossip like fishwives about Douglas and his supposed Nazi beliefs and sympathies. If you want to be firm about it, yes, it has a Coke Zero level sexist undertone, but that's it. Misogynistic is going a bit far, yes?<br /><br />Fiftly: you cannot seriously come to a conclusion that a band is somehow nazi if nazis listen to it. There is no sense in that. Whether Tom Metzger adores Cher or not won't make Cher a nazi. Just as you yourself said about Rammstein. The nazis seem to have a hard on for Rammstein for them being white germans with aggressive music and on the same basis I would imagine that some nazis have a hard on for DIJ because of the imagery, camouflage suits, war themes, etc.<br /><br />And obviously Death In June isn't reponsible if some white pride douche is gonna "do nazi shit". It's like blaming KMFDM for Columbine. Or do you justify stealing System of a Downs "Steal This Album" -album because the cover says so, or think that it should be kept responsible for shoplifting?<br /><br />And lastly: If you would even glimpse properly through the DIJ album discography you wouldn't find more than a handful of material that would "stick out". <br /><br />I would love to keep on going about Boyd Rice but I'm out of energy now. Some other time!Titohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06020785070348863811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-2028313721938697162012-04-01T15:49:51.279-07:002012-04-01T15:49:51.279-07:00This was about a lot more than the name. I'd p...This was about a lot more than the name. I'd prefer that if you wish to talk down to me, you address the far more disturbing things mentioned in the post than the name.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-84028533160997805342012-04-01T04:47:07.978-07:002012-04-01T04:47:07.978-07:00Your implications against Death In June couldn'...Your implications against Death In June couldn't be further from the truth. Please educate yourself about the correct origin of the name:<br /><br />"Death In June was named after I thought I heard a colleague say those words during our first recording session in 1981. It was an accident of mishearing. I have said this in countless interviews over the years since. It is merely post-rationalization to assume it refers to any one particular event, historic or otherwise. A common interpretation was that it referred to the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand in Sarajevo in June 1914. It didn't, and doesn't refer to anything else than "Death In June!"<br /><br /><br /><br />Source:<br />http://www.deathinjune.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=70nisrochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15760671840170707458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-83890392060023727962012-02-24T23:54:10.572-08:002012-02-24T23:54:10.572-08:00I watched the interview video, read the article an...I watched the interview video, read the article and looked up this racialism thing because before this post I'd never honestly heard of any of this. I find it interesting that he deflected every question off onto somebody else - he'd talk about other bands that were racialist, but not his own or even really himself. <br />It looked to me like he a tactic he was pulling to say, "don't look at my shit, look at these other peoples!" What he did say really sounded like a bunch of bullshit to me, and after looking at these photos and simply seeing how he was dressed in the video - well, to say the least I'm shocked.<br />It amazes me that in the year 2012 people are still acting like this. I'm sure it probably shouldn't - I mean, I've experienced racism personally - but honestly, saying a racist comment and dressing like a Nazi and using their imagery are not the same. Now hear me out here before you get offended, please.<br />While their both racist, the ones who do this neo-nazi shit are not only being racist but just insensitive and ignorant. Nazism wasn't just about racism. <br />It was also anti-semetic, anti-mental illness, anti-feminism - pretty much an excuse to be anti about a lot. A lot of people lost their lives (physically as well as in other ways) and their families in WWII from those bastards, and to just gloss over that like it never happened is even more disgusting. <br />So while I've never listened to any of those bands, I really don't want to. If the statement a band is making is that ignorant, I really have no interest in becoming a possible fan.<br />As for Boyd, shame on him. Even if he's not educated enough to realize what exactly he's doing, he could've researched this stuff before going on television for Gods sake. It seems like a ploy to garner attention from people who disagree, and to get money from like-minded people to me. And I'm sorry, but there are other ways to get money and attention.<br /><br />G.N.R.gnr1991https://www.blogger.com/profile/13209514170142832631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-11462984038203578302012-02-17T10:51:09.668-08:002012-02-17T10:51:09.668-08:00Hi Jeffrey, thanks for stopping by. Care to elabor...Hi Jeffrey, thanks for stopping by. Care to elaborate and add to the conversation or did you just want to add your opinion? Either is fine with me.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-17989307660595454882012-02-17T09:06:30.355-08:002012-02-17T09:06:30.355-08:00This is satire, right? You had me going for a seco...This is satire, right? You had me going for a second. Cheers.Jeffrey Prosserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14532980968650848080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-19014924921591293552012-02-10T08:50:31.728-08:002012-02-10T08:50:31.728-08:00Well, this blog may get loads of hits on certain p...Well, this blog may get loads of hits on certain posts but overall is not that popular yet, so give them time to hate onthis post ;-)<br /><br />I have thought of things like this as social experiments. I used to do psych research, and learned a lot about all kinds of group dynamics and human's obediency to authority in school. The Milgram experiments, the fact that people in groups do not help someone being attacked because they feel no responsibility in a group, the story of "the wave" and soon...<br /><br />As for the rebelling against German culture, that is one thing I try to shy away from criticizing as I am not German. Here, I have a radical friend who is a nazi uniform fetishist and is/was totally ashamed of it. I talked to them about it a bit (being of the bdsm variety myself) and they are coming to realize that fetishism in the bedroom is totally different than actually being a nazi. There are also bands like Hanzel und Gretyl that I think are doing something similar with Third Reich from the Sun and SS Deathstar- they seem to be making fun of the seriousness around words and also, hopefully, making fun of naziism. But I can't be sure. I think HuG is a bit different than Boyd Rice though. Although stupid ass stormfront dudes seem to enjoy Hanzel und Gretyl, too. So then I have the question, if no one gets the joke, and the joke leads to oppression, in what way are those making the joke responsible, if at all?<br /><br />I totally understand the desire to rebel against authoritarian culture and patriotism. BUT every time I watch a documentary on REAL neonazis, I hear that as a reason they joined. That is not to say that rebellion = naziism. But I do think fascist glorifying rebellion can lead to naziism. <br /><br />Lastly, I think making fun of nazis might be left up to those victimized and targeted by them most. I think German people fit in there as they are born into a country with a history forever altered by naziism. But I think it would be even more up to jews, queers, mad folks, disabled folks, etc to make fun of nazis because then it seems more obvious. But again, I am just throwing thoughts around.<br /><br />I think since DiJ has been around a long time, in the beginning they were doing something interesting, but nowadays the romanticism and coolness factor of hitlerian stuff no longer has that social experiment impact nor does it have an analysis, and we just end up with nachtmahrzis donning arm bands and talking about "more hot chicks" without thinking about this stuff. At least DiJ made some people think.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. They got me thinking a lot. Especially about responding to internal fascism. It's critical. I just worry that there are few people doing that.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-4938393761594113492012-02-10T02:04:34.635-08:002012-02-10T02:04:34.635-08:00I'm really glad you ended up doing a piece on ...I'm really glad you ended up doing a piece on Boyd and Friends. Honestly I'm surprised no one has come out in his defence. Usually when these threads appears the ever-so ironically uniformed stormtroopers come out of the woodwork. To be totally honest I greatly enjoy Death in June, although I despise Boyd. His combination of imagery, lyrics and refusal to state his personal views I find intriguing and thought provoking. I have always interpreted his project as some sort of demented social experiment; an attempt to recreate the experience of Weimar Germany and confront us with a slickly uniformed "solution" to the modern world's woes. How we respond to this experiment is the listener's choice. Do we pin on our totenkopfs and jubilantly march in line? Do we reflect on the horrors of history and interpret DiJ as a warning? Or do we join the rank of antifa and kick some neofolk ass in the parking lot? Of course there are many many different ways to respond but I do find the whole phenomenon of neofolk very interesting. <br /><br />I was at the Amphi Fest in Cologne this past summer. Beyond the run of the mill combat boot wearing rivetheads were a small clique of very elite looking personnel. Crisp military suits, armbands, shoulder strap holsters, brilled creamed WWII era hair cuts. All fun and games until you start adding the iron crosses, oak leaves and smiling death's head pins. There is rebellion against your elders and then their is pure insensitivity to the death and suffering of millions. I asked a friend (also a big fan of neofolk) why this was happening. He said that probably none of them are out-and-out neo-nazis. They mostly are interested in uniform fetishism and rebelling against German culture. In a country where almost any reference to Nazism is banned there is a certain part of the population that likes to push their right to expression. <br /><br />In my personal experience neofolkers are rarely fascists, but the unconscious adoption of a style directly inspired by fascism is not to be taken lightly. Fascism in its most sophisticated form is able to convince the view/listener that it is all just fun and games (e.g. the rationale behind the Nuremburg Rallys), a place they can come together and feel at one with each other. <br /><br />Modern day fascism, like that of Boyd Rice, hides behind a calculated form of extreme libertarianism, where the selfishness of the ego rises above any concerns for the broader collective. In this context, hate, whether it be promoted through rape or holocaust denial, is just another means for the ego accumulating power over others. In the end I think it is the allure of power that attracts people to individuals like DiJ and Rice (and perhaps to the misogyny in today's industrial).<br /><br />Like I said, I like to listen to DiJ but not because he is harmless. Rather he, and others like him, are so dangerous they can't be just ignored. He forces me to respond to the fascism inside myself and contemplate fascism in world around me.RedMonkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00475675761957766268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-34796320053449030152012-02-08T16:09:35.251-08:002012-02-08T16:09:35.251-08:00Bless you, Brad. I also feel a great deal better....Bless you, Brad. I also feel a great deal better.Dykonoclasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12691314447793203012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-73049362983503384902012-02-08T15:21:19.359-08:002012-02-08T15:21:19.359-08:00You must have deleted your comment. Now mine makes...You must have deleted your comment. Now mine makes little sense. But the links are still good so I'll leave it up.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-86676896272024830222012-02-08T15:20:41.495-08:002012-02-08T15:20:41.495-08:00Toadflakz, colorblindness is not anti-racism. In f...Toadflakz, colorblindness is not anti-racism. In fact it actually often contributes to racism and white supremacy. Perhaps I need to do a whole article on that as it comes up a lot. I grew up on colorblindness, too. While it began with good intentions, it's really a way for white people to not have to think about racism and to ignore it even more, and pretend we are all on the same playing field after centuries of oppression. That oppression still affects people today. Being blind to it is not antiracist. And you bet most colorblind people are sure to enter in their opinion when someone of color does soemthing negatively stereotypical in my experience. <br />Here are some examples:<br />Endorsement of racial “color-blindness” is linked to racism: http://restructure.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/endorsement-of-racial-colorblindness-is-linked-to-racism/<br />New Study: “Colorblindness” Reduces Kids’ Ability to See, Challenge Racism: http://www.timwise.org/2010/09/new-study-colorblindness-reduces-kids-ability-to-see-challenge-racism/<br />With Friends Like These, Who Needs Glenn Beck? Racism and White Privilege on the Liberal-Left:<br />http://www.timwise.org/2010/08/with-friends-like-these-who-needs-glenn-beck-racism-and-white-privilege-on-the-liberal-left/<br />and so on...<br />Coming to a blog and telling people how to fight oppression is odd unless you are doing it yourself. Otherwise it seems a little bit like giving orders without doing the work. If you believe ignoring race and racism means being anti-racist, go ahead and write a blog about that. We do not believe that and both of us have done extensive research on it.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-48944876716436555362012-02-05T08:30:41.796-08:002012-02-05T08:30:41.796-08:00You are amazing! Thank you for finding this! I fee...You are amazing! Thank you for finding this! I feel much better now.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-87103949606778166112012-02-05T07:13:28.067-08:002012-02-05T07:13:28.067-08:00Sleazy discussed his collaboration with Boyd in a ...Sleazy discussed his collaboration with Boyd in a 2009 interview with <i>The Wire</i>. <br /><br /><a href="http://thewire.co.uk/articles/2859" rel="nofollow">Full interview</a>.<br /><br />PETER CHRISTOPHERSON: Boyd was kind of a pal of Jhonn and we collaborated quite early on with Coil [as Sickness Of Snakes] on an album called <i>Nightmare Culture</i>. And then Boyd became, as I understand it, more forthright in his right wing ideas in the press, and so consequently we rather drifted apart. Jhonn and I and Boyd met up a few times in the early part of the century. I think he’s interesting in the sense of being a maverick and actually not caring too much what people think, but with most people who make a public statement of their fascist views, it seems to me silly and unnecessary and distasteful.<br /><br />MIKE BARNES: You have said that you like to tell it like it is, but you also push boundaries. <br /><br />PETER CHRISTOPHERSON: I’m afraid truth often takes you outside boundaries, and that can cause <i>embarrassment</i>, which as we all know is more painful for us Englishmen than the worst torture. A long time after Coil and Boyd worked together, we fell out because of Boyd’s increasingly racist public image. It wasn’t because of political or social correctness. For us it was just common sense. Anyone who singles out a particular portion of any population for criticism just because they fit into a certain category, whether it be gay or black or Jewish or even female, to us was, and is, simply moronic. Clearly all humanity is filled with good people and bad people, and it’s got absolutely nothing to do with what colour shirt, or skin you’ve got on or even your aftershave. Back in 1982 or 83, Jhonn, Marc Almond and I were barred from a heavy gay New York fetish club late one night, because of the brand of aftershave one of us had used, which was a real drag because a group of horny Puerto Ricans had just gone in... [laughs]. That’s not racist is it? Those guys were hot! All too often you can judge a book by its cover, but as for people, no chance.<br />There are a lot of those Death In June derivative, new fascist kind of bands, who just think if they bang a bass drum and intone some kind of rhetoric and play some horns and stuff... it’s just so boring. My politics now are more or less completely the opposite of that, so I wouldn’t be interested anyway, but musically there seem to be a lot of people now who think there is something clever about putting on a little moustache and wearing a grey mac.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15613329277334129312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-29576038923797472452012-02-04T20:47:04.645-08:002012-02-04T20:47:04.645-08:00Hahahahaha I can't help but laugh. Everything ...Hahahahaha I can't help but laugh. Everything IS terrible. And your mom burning the satanic bible- it must have been amazing.<br /><br />Are antifa and ara the same? I can never tell. I also feel like I should write about how antifa and ara can be hella misogynistic and even racist in some ways but I didn't want the boyd rice fans to come on and use it as an excuse to say Rice is suddenly the new candidate for a men-against-patriarchy group. lulz.<br /><br />This documentary is awesome.Corvus Strigiformhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10669230784451094769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2591033401994133438.post-91630802860583551042012-02-04T20:41:26.929-08:002012-02-04T20:41:26.929-08:00Schwule Nazis, totally exist. Here is a documenta...Schwule Nazis, totally exist. Here is a documentary if you want to stay on the internet forever.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldANuG4UUKo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL4133561B82103521<br /><br />I remember an antifa bro from your city talking about organizing against that Death In June show there. Which I think is when I found out about the band's fash affiliations. Hilariously, the first time I heard of DIJ was cuz they were playing a show in my city many many years ago. I went to the internet and listened to a few clips to decide if it was worth paying to go to. I was like, 'Wow, this totally sucks. Fuck it.' Actually, now I'm remembering this Russian kid in my undergrad program saying that he'd gone to that show and that there were scuffles outside between pro and anti-fash folks.<br /><br />Also, I read the Satanic Bible in high school (when mom found it she burned it, natch) and it was really misogynist. If misogyny registered in my godly teenage brain, the shit in question is completely fucked.<br /><br />Also, everything is terrible.Dykonoclasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12691314447793203012noreply@blogger.com